Difference between revisions of "Talk:Debt"

Latest revision as of 21:43, 3 November 2013

>.> err.... this is a bit off.. you can do TFs at any time now, so that isn't a Strategic Use. Its mainly used by those of use obscessed with doing all the story arcs. Sure, we aim for the badges, but that only really works at higher lvls when you can get enough debt to actually be able to earn the badge.

o,o on a side note, maybe a mentioning on how the debt cap has been dropped twice since issue 0? its now only a 1/4th of what it was back then. --Sleepy Kitty 10:28, 24 May 2006 (PDT)

Be Bold, change it ;D (doing so now) Anyway, in CoH, you can always get a story arc as long as you've done some missions for the contact.

as for dropped twice? Hasn't it only been dropped once, but then only halved again if you're in a mission? --StarGeek 14:08, 9 September 2006 (PDT)

Well, with the most recent drop, the debt table needs updating. I can confirm that the debt cap at 46 is now 276,000 --Fleeting Whisper 08:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what the last paragraph of the Strategic Use article is attempting to explain. Could someone please make it more clear? --Professor Immortal 18:22, 28 July 2007 (EDT)

Done. Corebreach 01:26, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

BTW, the debt numbers are wrong. My 14th level controler was only accruing 380 debt per defeat (outside of any mission), and was capped at 1900 debt.

--Ssyrie 20:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Correct, the numbers posted are incorrect. On Feb 12, 2008 debt was lowered across the board by 20%

Sofonisba 19:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Obsolete

Between the no xp option and the level-independency of accolades, the use of debt section is obsolete. I marekd it as such, but still, how should I put the current options for that? - Baalus Seth 23:00, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Probably add a note somewhere that people used to use debt as a means of slowing XP growth, but with issue13 came the ability to halt XP gain immediately via options?

Also, we need a new debt table which shows debt gained inside and outside missions along with new max debt caps at whatever levels.  :o Sera404 23:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I can think of at least one new use for debt. If you want to continue making progress on your Patroller/Criminal badge, but you've hit the 10 bar Patrol XP limit, you can go faceplant enough times to clear out the Patrol XP and log back out. This would also qualify as a new method of farming debt badges since any debt that cancels out Patrol XP apparently counts as debt worked off. Likewise, any debt you have when you log out will slowly be eaten away by the Patrol XP that's accumulating. --Eabrace 23:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Debt screenshot

We need a good example showing the XP bar with debt colors, like in the patrol XP article. Catwhoorg 00:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

After I work off my patrol XP I'll go die a few times.  :) --Eabrace 03:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Working Off Debt

To work off debt more quickly, a character may serve as an Exemplar or Malefactor. While this arrangement exists, all experience the character earns is applied toward his debt.

Hasn't this been changed with SSKing? I don't know the details personally, but this doesn't seem accurate.

A clever way to use Exemplaring to full effect is to acquire a high-level "Defeat X Enemies" mission that is not tied to any particular zone and specifies an enemy that exists at both high and low levels, such as Arachnos or the Circle of Thorns. Exemplar to a much lower-level character and defeat those enemies in an appropriate low-level zone. Your mission completion bonus will be based on your true level and be quite large, and it will all be applied to your debt due to your Exemplar status.

Same as above, but this doesn't seem practical in any case.--Stfrn 17:54, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

1. Nope. If a character is exemplared and has debt, it works off the debt first, just like before, then goes to a choice of experience or double influence (previously only influence).
2. It still works (mob defeats for non-specific hunts count at any level, on any map), but isn't something I've ever seen anyone doing. ~ AGGE talk/cons 04:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Hm, nope it works differently? :P The way it is now, you effectively trade influence for working off debt. #2, the counting at any level is the non-practical part. I can see why Corebreach worded it that way, but it's the kind of trick that no one would really bother to do. Especially since debt has changed significantly since that was written. --Stfrn 00:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

1. That's the way it's been all along. Without debt, you gain extra influence when exemplared. With debt, you pay everything toward debt. This is how it operated before SSK, and is how it still operates. (I previously mentioned experience or double influence, because I had forgotten about the exemplar part of the article's suggestion.)
2. It works, so it bears mentioning. Just because no one really does it (generally when people go after lower level enemies for a hunt, they just go after gray mobs on the street) doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned. ~ AGGE talk/cons 06:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

That trick is an interesting suggestion, but belongs in the experience article, or a guide on how to earn experence, not here. Debt is paid off by all forms of exp gain, mentioning some minor strategy to get exp has no place here.--Stfrn 14:13, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Decided to get some personal experience with debt, so I got a few of my characters defeated and tried fighting critters under various settings: in AE, in a flashback mission on the streets, and with the settings on and off. And my conclusion? this page and the experience page really need updating. As far as I can tell the formula works like this: every reward is split into two parts, an influence and experence portion. With debt, half of the exp portion is subtracted, no matter what. After that, if you are 50 or have the option switched, the remained is granted as inf. If you have the "no experience" option switched, instead it is dropped. Being explemered or not has no effect on level 50's. No matter what options you set, or what level you are, the debt is always reduced by the same amount.--Stfrn 14:01, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, breaking this down point by point (because I'm trying to understand exactly what the disagreement is, not whether anyone is right or wrong):

When a character has experience debt, half the experience earned (or the amount of remaining debt, whichever is less) is used to pay off the debt.

• From what I got out of reading your account above, this is still true. Any experience you earned while you had debt was split in half and one half counted toward paying off debt.

Only the remainder applies to advance the character's level.

• The "remainder" being the second half of the experience that wasn't used to pay off debt.

As of issue 16 and Supersidekicking, all players earn experience rewards while Exemplared or Malefactored

• Is this the part you're saying you disagree with? I kind of get the impression that you're specifically equating "earn experience" with "move your XP bar to the right".

and debt is taken as half of that.

• Which matches the first point.

There is currently no way to prevent debt from being payed off from the experience reward

• And I think you seem to agree with that.

nor to pay off at a higher rate.

• Not sure if you're agreeing, disagreeing, or just not stating anything regarding this part.

--Eabrace 14:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

I honestly don't see what the problem is- I've presented my case, and can give hard numbers if it matters. Or you can log in and look for yourself. I may not have phrased everything as clearly as I could, but I'm an engineer not a writter.--Stfrn 18:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm just trying to understand exactly what the disagreement is at the moment, not passing judgment on who's right or wrong. Consider me simply and arbiter collecting information at this point.

I didn't realize that the page had already been edited when I posted above, so allow me to start over.

When a character has experience debt, half the experience earned (or the amount of remaining debt, whichever is less) is used to pay off the debt. Only the remainder applies to advance the character's level.

• In other words, if defeating Mob_A would result in a reward of Total_Experience XP under a given set of circumstances (character is level X, spawn is also level X, Mob_A is minion rank, character is running solo, for example) and while out of debt, then while in debt, defeating the same enemy under the same circumstances would result in a reward of Total_Experience/2 toward the character's next level and pay off an equal amount of debt.
• In an example where a character defeats an enemy worth more than twice the remaining debt, this states that the debt will be completely paid off and the experience applied to the next level will be equal to Total_Experience - Remaining_Debt.

Is there a disagreement with either of these assertions?

To work off debt more quickly, a character may serve as an Exemplar or Malefactor.

• Is this where we disagree with the article? Do we all disagree with this statement, or are some of us asserting that this statement is still true?

While this arrangement exists, all experience the character earns is applied toward his debt.

• Again, is this something we agree or disagree with?

A clever way to use Exemplaring to full effect is to acquire a high-level "Defeat X Enemies" mission that is not tied to any particular zone and specifies an enemy that exists at both high and low levels, such as Arachnos or the Circle of Thorns. Exemplar to a much lower-level character and defeat those enemies in an appropriate low-level zone. Your mission completion bonus will be based on your true level and be quite large, and it will all be applied to your debt due to your Exemplar status.

• Before we address this block, let's make sure we're all on the same page with the other statements.

From reading the conversation so far, it seems to me that the major source of contention comes with circumstances under which XP gain is turned off.

Stfrn, if you already have actual numbers to present, that would be awesome. I won't ask you to go out of your way to collect any data, though.

--Eabrace 19:13, 12 March 2010 (UTC) (<- also an engineer )

I never to make a big deal out of all this... someone on the forums had mentioned this information was out of date, and I noticed that the page did not mention supersidekicking. I asked if anyone had any hard information. When I didn't get any I collected it myself and I thought it was straightforward- no offence to Aggelakis, but I wasn't looking for opinions, just numbers. The problem with the numbers I recorded is I hadn't thought ahead to haw many factors I would want to record, so I wrote down something like 100 numbers, and that'd take a while to type in:P nevertheless I can give a sample:

a level 50 defeating a level 50 Behemoth LT: 122227 influence.
same character and critter, but with debt: 5558 debt paid and 6669inf
same character without debt in supergroup mode: 6114 influence and 44 prestige
same with debt 5558debt paid, 3335 inf and 44 prestige
exemplered to level 10 and fighting a level 10 skull LT: same numbers as above
exemplered with "earn double infamany while exemplered": same numbers

--Stfrn 00:22, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

OK, as a generalization, let's say that in its simplest form the reward for defeating any mob or finishing any mission is earned_xp XP + earned_inf inf. Under normal circumstances, earned_xp and earned_inf will have a values equal to base_xp and base_inf (respectively) as stored in a table. All other examples should be a variation on this.

First, let's look at how influence/infamy changes while in SG mode.

• while in SG mode: earned_xp XP + earned_inf inf + earned_prest prestige
  • earned_inf = base_inf * 1-inf_to_prest_rat
  • earned_prest = base_inf * inf_to_prest_rat * inf_to_prest_cf
  • inf_to_prest_rat = value determined by table, indicates the percentage of inf converted to prestige at each level
  • inf_to_prest_cf = conversion factor with units of prestige/inf

This holds true with our original formula because inf_to_prest_rat has a value of 0 when not in super group mode. Substituting all factors in, we have this so far:

• earned_xp XP + (base_inf * 1-inf_to_prest_rat) inf + (base_inf * inf_to_prest_rat * inf_to_prest_cf) prestige

Now, let's look at how experience changes with debt.

• while in debt: earned_xp XP + debt_xp debt repayment + earned_inf inf
  • debt_xp = the smaller of either debt_remaining or base_xp * 0.5
  • debt_remaining = amount of experience debt remaining
  • earned_xp = base_xp - debt_xp

And let's plug that into what we already know about prestige calculations while in SG mode

• while in debt and in SG mode: (base_xp - debt_xp) XP + debt_xp debt repayment + (base_inf * 1-inf_to_prest_rat) inf + (base_inf * inf_to_prest_rat * inf_to_prest_cf) prestige

So, now we need to look at what happens when earning extra influence/infamy instead of experience while exemplared. (Note that this is automatic after reaching level 50 regardless of whether the option is selected.)

• while EXed: (converted_inf + earned_inf) inf
  • converted_inf = earned_xp * xp_to_inf_cf
  • xp_to_inf_cf = conversion factor with units of inf/XP

Now, if we apply that to our overall equation so far, we should get something like this:

• while in debt and in SG mode and exemplared: 0 XP + debt_xp debt repayment + ((base_xp - debt_xp) * xp_to_inf_cf + (base_inf * 1-inf_to_prest_rat)) inf + (base_inf * inf_to_prest_rat * inf_to_prest_cf) prestige

In other words:

• Bonus inf does not change the value of prestige earned while in SG mode.
• Debt does not change the value of prestige earned while in SG mode.
• Debt does change the amount of bonus inf earned.
• Payment of debt takes priority over earning inf.

Assuming I didn't lose anyone, does this match everyone's observations in the game? --Eabrace 17:55, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that looks right. On a side note, do we have have a page on "enemy xp mods", as seen here? --Stfrn 19:05, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Protect this page?

It just occured to me that the likely reason there've been three payday loan link-spamming entries to this page in the last three months is because it comes up in searches about "debt." Would there be merit to protecting this page (especially since there won't be any more game updates about it) to help avoid this in the future? — talk / contribs 23:17, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

I can see some merit in that suggestion. It's unlikely that the page is going to have to change much now that there aren't any more updates coming for the game, too. --Eabrace 01:15, 22 December 2012 (UTC)