View source for Talk:5th Column Controversy

The release of [[Issue 3]] brought some big changes to the game, including the removal of the [[5th Column]]. They were replaced by the [[Council]], a functionally similar group. Some believed that, though [[Cryptic Studios|Cryptic]] claimed the coup was plot-motivated and had been planned for a long time, the change was due to the imminent release of the game in Europe.

The issue comes up on the forums every now and then. Here is a summary of the major points from each side.

:o.o ack! the discussion content is gone.. anyway, for the italian one, just check wikipedia for a semi accurate background (less edit war than the german one anyway), just keep in mind WW2 was Germany, Italy, and Japan. Italy and Germany had very similar governments at the time and where close allies. 
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:@.@ and about whats above, "claimed the coup was plot-motivated and had been planned for a long time," as far as I know, they never claimed this. When the change occurred, the reason given was due to complaints from the player base about nazis in the game. There where a few complaints, but at the same time, there have been many more about other topics in-game from mostly the same groups. Anyway, the coup was never plot orientated, ^^;; in fact, it messed up the whole plot for that issue and required a rewrite of a lot of Striga. @.@ its to bad to, I really wanted to see the constant battles between the 5th and Council that where originally suppose to happen. the ones with sky raiders just aren't as fun.--[[User:Sleepykitty|Sleepy Kitty]] 22:20, 12 November 2007 (EST)

: ??? What are you talking about? The devs have ALWAYS said it was part of the story. The reason given was certainly, 100% NOT that there were complaints about Nazis in the game. Where are you getting your information?--[[User:GreyDog|GreyDog]] 10:58, 13 November 2007 (EST)

::o.o;; issue 3 dev digest, there was lots of talk about it back then and why. Honestly, it being part of the intended plot? I've only been hearing that late 2006 and 2007 and mostly from players. ^^;; its so clearly was never intended plot wise that I'm not sure where that rumor got started honestly. You've been playing since before all this happened, o.o you honestly don't recall all the stuff from back then? @.@ anyway, some scouring needs to be done to see what might be still retained on the forums, I doubt its much if any, but we should really look. --[[User:Sleepykitty|Sleepy Kitty]] 14:54, 13 November 2007 (EST)
::: I was around for Issue 3, and I distinctly remember that the German Law hullabaloo was brought up and sustained by players alone. No dev EVER mentioned it except to dispell it.--[[User:GreyDog|GreyDog]] 15:26, 13 November 2007 (EST)
::::o.o I wasn't making a clarification between dev and comm rep there, most of the chatter about it was from the comm rep side. And dispelling it isn't exactly what they did since none of them specifically said anything against it, just implied. What I was typing about before wasn't about directly stating anything about it, it was about how the "intended part of plot" stuff is a late comer to the argument. o.o I just got back home from several meetings, so I'm going to try and find some of the posts from back then, otherwise its just he said she said type of stuff.--[[User:Sleepykitty|Sleepy Kitty]] 22:09, 13 November 2007 (EST)

==Coincidence i11/i12==
@.@ I'm holding myself back here, but every time I see the Coincidence section note about i11 (and now 12) having them back in makes me want to scream WTH! over it not being relevant at all. They didn't know they'd be adding them back in-game in 2 yrs when they yanked them or they wouldn't have removed all references to them ingame.. They where added back in because they had over 2 years of players begging, pleading, and complaining about them not being there. Please pardon my rant, I just had to blow out some steam. --[[User:Sleepykitty|Sleepy Kitty]] 02:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
:* It is indeed relevant. No laws have changed significantly enough in the applicable countries to say that what was OK in Issue 2, wasn't OK in Issue 3, and is now OK in Issue 11/12. --[[User:Aggelakis|Aggelakis]] 05:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
::no, it isn't relevant to the controversy because it has been 2 years of ppl pointing out easy solutions, and also because the new version of the 5th is now Italian and no longer nazis. The controversy was back when with issue 3 and the next issue or 2 where they removed and rewrote everything. o_o now its just us old nutters arguing over our memories and trying to justify what we remember our points of view where. --[[User:Sleepykitty|Sleepy Kitty]] 06:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
: One could probably argue that they were planning to eventually re-introduce the 5th Column all along, I suppose. Whether you personally find it relevant or not, it does make sense as a supporting argument to that side's theory. In any case, the litmus test for whether it should go in the article or not is: are people citing it as support for the "coincident" argument? If so, then it definitely belongs in the article. -- [[User:Sekoia|Sekoia]] 14:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

==The 5th Were Taken Out==
Germany restricts or bans a number of games because of their Nazi imagery, notably the original ''Wolfenstein 3D''.

== Citations ==

I would like to see some footnotes linking to comments from the developers, if they are available.  Similarly, I'd like to see a list, or link to a list, of games with Nazis that have been released in Europe, and particularly Germany.

I think Sleepykitty's comment on the forums about the german government approval process might be relevant to that as well.  Researchable, at least.  (Are there any footprints saying that NCSoft might have asked for such approval?)  Mostly interested from an "inquiring minds" perspective.

Like the article.  --[[User:Jumping Jack|Jumping Jack]] 13:32, 13 November 2007 (EST)

=="Italian Fascists?"==
"After much protests, the Developers promised that the 5th column would return, but as Italian fascists, not German." What in the name of high school football is this supposed to mean? Nobody has ever said this.--[[User:GreyDog|GreyDog]] 15:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

==Official Position==
Could we start the page with the developers' ''official'' position? Some people may think it's BS, but regardless, anything that is not the official position is by definition SPECULATION. After the official explanation, we can go on to say that many people feel the Devs are just trying to cover their tracks, etc. etc.--[[User:GreyDog|GreyDog]] 15:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

@.@ I let out some steam on a talk page and suddenly everything goes nuts.. Do you mean the original stance on the subject, some of the later ones, or the current feeling about it (or all of them its almost a completely diff team, but we could try asking Cryptic)? Would the wayback machine have states original post about their being replaced due to complaints archived on it? I've never tried to use it for forum posts before. Last time I check I couldn't even find the post about them being added back in the game... Actually, just went through both Statesman and Posi's posts, couldn't find any about it at all. (States definitely had the original replacement post under his belt, it was in is top 10 'why don't they read his posts first!' post. I think the 5ths return one was by posi, but not 100%. It should also be the one mentioning that they where thinking about bringing them back with the backstory more reflecting their Italian background in WW2 rather than german. From what I've seen of the current version, it looks like they didn't go with this though (not that most of their bio pages mentioned either). --[[User:Sleepykitty|Sleepy Kitty]] 16:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)