View source for Talk:Circle of Thorns/Archived July 7, 2006

== Relative major editing overhaul ==

Hey guys, don't take the edits personally, you added ''fantastic'' information that is priceless.  I did want to standardize the format, though.  For example, some of the powers were bulleted, some where indented, and some didn't have any kind of formatting applied (I prefer no formatting, using the icon itself as the bullet).  Also, I removed all of the sigs (this is recorded in the article's history) and notes (those belong here, not in the article itself).  I also spelled out all effects (I prefer "Damage over Time" to "DoT" since non-RPG'ers may be reading the articles) and corrected some grammatical, spelling, and capitalization errors.

I still plan to tweak the article some, and at some point, I'll add some images of the enemies themselves.  Maybe this article will eventually serve as the template to use as all villain group articles.

-- [[User:TonyV|TonyV]] 09:24, 25 Jan 2006 (CST)

:I never take an edit personally.  I'm new to wiki, but from what I read, that's probably a number one rule.  I altered the [[Template:Power|Power Template]] I created to match to format you put these in.  

:How about a discussion or help page with some of the basics you want for enemy page formatting.  I know you looked at the [[Council]] page I put up and just SCREAMED :D (there are just too many of those guys).  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 13:19, 25 Jan 2006 (CST)

:Re: Notes.  I was thinking that some notes really should be within the Mob (BTW, what I mean when I say [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_(computer_gaming) Mob].  Yes, I'm old school) entry.  Yes, opinons should be on the discussion page (i.e. ''Many consider them overpowered due to their debuffs and siphon life skills.'') but there are others that would get lost in a discussion page, esp. on a page with so many different types.  Off hand, I would think that the following would be examples of notes belonging in the entry:
:*Historical notes (i.e. ''Nerva Spectral Daemon made their appearence in Issue 6''),
:*Discrepancies (i.e ''[[Turrets#Dual Artillery Gun|The Dual Cannon]] attack says it's a Lethal damage attack in the info window, but the combat chat window text says it's energy damage.''),
:*Bugs (i.e ''Devouring Earth Eminators have ceased to drop with Issue 5'')
:*Characteristics (i.e. ''Observers can see invisible heroes and have inherent flight and can't be knocked down.'') 
: But it's your site, so it's your rules, Tony :D   Hmmm... this all looks like it needs a seperate discussion page, since it's getting off the topic of CoT.  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 14:42, 25 Jan 2006 (CST)


Got it!
Reworking the CoT section to the "legal" template then! 
And adding some of these notes would be a good idea, IMHO: if the info is not an opinion but an objetive fact, it would be part of the info on a mob =) ...And it´s true we are getting off-topic here, lol! =)
--[[User:Yakovlev|Yakovlev]] 19:38, 25 Jan 2006 (CST)

== Editing ==

Hi there!

Wow, I think that´s adressed to me!

I´ll try to explain myself:

-Gramatical errors:
Well, I have been copying literally mob info and attacks, including MMO slang (DoT, AoE and such)...didn´t stop to think someone could not understand it, you are right. I can put the whole words instead of acronyms, it´s no problem =)
Kept the gramatical errors in the hope that we could make a list someday with all of them and send it to the devs, rather than report the errors one by one... It´s more likely than they will adress the issue that way, IMHO =)
Anyways don´t worry...between those errors already in game text and the new ones I have made now in the section while copying, I´m sure mostly everything has errors now. Being a non-English speaker doesen´t help much, either...=P

-Added signature:
I know how things are in the Net. Sooner or later, someone comes and flames the site saying mob A can´t have this or that attack, mob B can´t be like that...etc, etc, etc... Well: this way they have the responsible for the comments just there (that´s me). I´ll be very pleased to prove what I have said here is true, as I keep screenshots of everything =). That way, problem solved.

-Images and graphics:
Let´s not fool ourselves: when it comes to computers I´m still in the Stone Age. I wouldn´t be able to program a computer even if my life would depend of it. Sad but true =/.
That means that I do the things the simplest way I can...the one I understand, thats is =). I don`t know if I have done things right here...All I can say in my defense is that all seemed to work... Anyways I´ll be pleased if someone checks the info I provide and makes sure images are linked correctly and all that technical/programming voodoo =P
Please someone check the images, as there´s still a ton of info to come! =)


Well, apologies for the errors...will be doing the things better from now on =)

And just a last thing:
Please open new sections for more villain groups: Nemesis, Crey, Malta...everything. We are going to need them soon =D


Ah, and just in case:

- I can be found at @Yakovlev, and I always play in Pinnacle server. Just send a tell if I can be of help =)

Yakovlev


:You can create a section at any time.  The easy way is to type the name (say Nemesis) into the search box on the left and click '''Go'''.  There will be a link called '''create an article with this title''' near the top.  Click it and start adding info.  You can copy the template from a previous entry (not the CoT one, unless you're into pain :D) and remove the previous references.  At least, that's what I've been doing. :D  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 12:30, 25 Jan 2006 (CST)


Hi there!

Thanks a lot for the info! =D will be opening new sections soon then =) See? I was serious when I said I was illetrated when dealing with computers... =/

:Yeah, I'd like to echo what [[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] said, feel free to create any article or section you want.  If I don't like it, I'll edit it, as you've seen. :-)  Seriously, though, I don't hold myself to any higher standard.  If you think there's a better way to do something that I've done, by all means, go for it.  The absolute positive worst thing that can happen is I'll disagree and edit it back, no hard feelings.

:Don't sweat the grammatical and spelling errors.  I wasn't griping, because I know I've made more than my fair share that others have come and edited behind me.  That's the beauty of a wiki--there are folks watching over your shoulder, so even if you screw something up (and believe me, I ''have'' screwed stuff up), it ideally gets fixed relatively quickly.

:As for comments in the articles, I have two main concerns about it: 1) that it will clutter up the article with so much information that folks won't be able to find what they came here looking for, and 2) that opinions will start creeping in.

:For #1, the answer may be in a discussion in which I mentioned possibly segmenting villain group articles into a section of lists of villain categories and classes, a section of a simple alphabetical list of villain types, and, for factual notes such as "such-and-such was introduced in Issue 7."

:For #2, I would really prefer that arguable opinions be left out.  As a simple example, it's almost universally agreed upon in the CoH/CoV community that Enhancement Diversification (the dreaded ''ED'') is pure evil.  Personally, I happen to like it, because it means that every battle isn't just an automatic win, and it encourages players to try different combinations of enhancements instead of just slotting everything with damage, resistance, or whatever.  So if I saw a comment in an article that said something like, "Most players believe that Enhancement Diversification is a bad thing," it's probably factually true, but it also has an implied connotation that the wiki editors/writers/maintainers/whatevers believe that Enhancement Diversification is a bad thing, something I don't want to convey.  Also, if I'm an anonymous player who takes exception to that claim, it might prompt me to do something like edit a comment into an article that says something like, "People who think ED is bad SUX!"  Maybe not that harsh, but you get the idea.  Honestly, I really don't like the [[wikipedia:City Of Heroes#Criticism|Criticism]] section of the [[wikipedia:City of Heroes|City of Heroes]] article in the wikipedia precisely because of this.  It just strikes me as a "This is my personal opinion" section couched in "A lot of people believe..." language.

:You don't have to prove anything, I trust you.  If I run across something that's demonstrably untrue (written by you or anybody else), I'll simply edit it.  Likewise, I've been known to be wrong myself.  If you run across something that's untrue, even if I wrote it, by all means edit it, because it's probably just another case of me screwing something up.

:--[[User:TonyV|TonyV]] 20:44, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)

== Couple things more ==

Just two things I forgot to mention:

-Named mobs:
I use this title over "Named Bosses" because some named mobs are Lieutenants and even Minions. Well, anyways something should be done about that section. My list of named mobs for the Circle of Thorns has 48 names on it...and that´s now that I have barely started to explore CoV: expect some more to come. Other groups like Malta or Nemesis have similar numbers, while The Council has a whooping 109 names in my list. Nedless to say, adding such ammount of names could screw the page for dubiously useful information...perhaps the nameds mobs should be added in another page, or their own section, or something.

-Images:
¿Can´t we use the little portraits which show up at the mob info in game? They would take little space to upload and seem good enough to me. Putting them aside by the mob´s name would complement the info...What do you think about it? =)

: I've been adding images as I go when I'm soloing.  You can upload them through the Upload File link on the left, though I wouldn't suggest full screen shots.  I use [http://IrfanView.com IrfanView] to quickly cut, resize and alter the images.  You can then add them into the page.  I think the format Tony started was '''<nowiki>[[Image:Image Name|100px|Thumb]]</nowiki>'''.  But check the [[Help:Preloaded_Images|Image page]] to make a picture of it hasn't already been uploaded.  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 12:41, 25 Jan 2006 (CST)

::I hate to sound like a parrot, but the short answer is, "What [[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] said."  The little portrait might not be a bad idea, but unless it can be extracted from the .pigg files (I haven't checked), it sure seems like an awful lot of work.  At first, I set out to have pictures of every single enemy in the game, bar none.  That was pretty ambitious, as some villain groups (*cough* Circle of Thorns...) have a gazillion of enemy types.  Now, I'm content to just have a few representative samples.  The process of getting these pictures may be made somewhat easier by .demorecord files and enemy models, something I've been playing with a lot lately.

::Oh, and I'm not too fond of the word "mobs," it strikes me a too much MMO-speak and not enough plain English.  Plus, it can be confusing, in that in day-to-day life, the word "mob" is used to indicate a large number, whereas in MMO-speak, it can mean a single enemy.  To an average person, a "named mob" would be a named group of something, not a named individual.

::--[[User:TonyV|TonyV]] 21:06, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)

:::After coming to CoH after many years of the torture known as Everquest, I also think of them as "Mobs".  But in the game I don't use that term because the CoH userbase is newer than the EQ one, and it causes much confusion ("What mob, there's only 1 guy there!").

:::And while I haven't looked for the little pictures from the /info command, I doubt they're there.  I'm guessing that it's a routine that pulls the image from the actual model, because if you do a /info on a PC, you'll see them in their costume that's in their first slot, which may not be what they're currently wearing.  Besides, full length looks better :D  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 22:50, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)

== I´m a genius ==

Just realized I have been working the whole evening and adding mobs and powers without using the power template.

Someone award me a Nobel prize, please...

Dear Lord. Will fix all the mess eventually, sorry =(

:Don't stress it :D (need to upload a smiley image).  The Power Template is only something I was testing out and Tony hasn't said whether he wants to use it or not.  It still has a problem if there isn't a power icon added, as it will show <nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki> if there isn't something in that slot.  I did notice that there is a Power Missing icon [[Image:Power Missing.png|22px]], though.  I tried setting up a default if there wasn't something there, but it wouldn't work for me :( .  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 14:05, 26 Jan 2006 (CST)

== Crystals, CoT or Objects? ==

Moved Yakovlev's note here:

There is no possible description, as they can´t be targeted.

: Ya never know what isn't possible :D  Updated descriptions from the data files to have a complete entry.  But should these be here?  I could make a good argument for and against. They do appear with the CoT spawns, but then maybe the Objects category would be better (tryed to link there, but didn't work :( .  Then again, they aren't targetable, so maybe a seperate category, say something like Enviromental Objects?  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 11:54, 27 Jan 2006 (CST)

:Also, changed icon for Crystal of Pain, since the icon Yakovlev used was misleading.  A power icon with a shield indicates it's a defense buff or debuff.  A damage type would be more appropriate.  I really need to create the article on the icon pictures I was thinking of makeing :D --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 12:04, 27 Jan 2006 (CST)


Gah! Sorry, just saw your note now, Star =/

Crystals:
Well, technically there is a ton of items! Most of them have no effect at all and just explode when destroyed...I tought it was a good idea to put in their respective factions those which can affect players characters in any way =)

These always appear in Oranbega or areas with very high density of CoT mobs, so I tought it would be a good idea to put them here...anyways, you are right: these things are objects too...why not put them in both sections? That would solve it, and it´s not much space =D

Icon: I'm using the Red Shield Icon to mark powers which are unknown to me, as that will make an easy way for someone else to track which powers are registered yet still unknown. Picked that icon because I´m sure it will be one of the least used (it´s the PvP debuff), and, being red, it can be seen easily =)

Feel free to change it if you find a better one, and thanks for the comment =)

Again sorry for the lateness to respond, and, BTW, you are doing a great work with the Shard =D

--[[User:212.59.206.152|212.59.206.152]] 19:58, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)

It's Yak here, btw...not logged in...as careless as usual =P

:Re: Shard.  I noticed that there wasn't much there, so I took my Empath Defender (because he has teleport) all the way out the Storm Palace for the first time (wow, just wow).  Played with an elemental a bit, and got smacked down.  Now, he's not one of those "pure" healer types, built more as an Offender, and can hold his own for the most part against anything short of AV.  And some of the stuff in the Shard, too, I've learned.  

:Anyway, the point of all that is that I realized that I can copy my Scrapper to Test, and respec Flight into his build and then I'll go and double check what I can with great ease and safety (who cares about debt on Test!)

:But the reason I was questioning about the Crystals is because there is already an [[Object|Objects]] category.  But then, they aren't targetable. But then... etc :D

:As for icons, that's the exact same reason I've been using the [[image:Power Missing.png|16px]] icon.  And in case you didn't notice, it becomes really easy to figure out what articles need some lovin' (whichever icon is used).  Click on the icon, and near the bottom, you'll see a list of all pages that have that icon.  --[[User:StarGeek|StarGeek]] 22:18, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)